USA Space Travel

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It is rumored that Donald Trump is going to kickstart the space program in America again.  The short term goal is go back to Earth's moon and develop a base inside the caverns on it.

The caves make a tremendous idea because they haven't been bombarded in at least 100 million years.

All they really need is a door.

 

The moon would make an excellent staging area for Mars trips.  Most energy is spent breaking free of Earth's gravity but the trip from the moon to Mars is only a tiny fraction and with new technology it only takes 39 days.

 

Mars trips will happen within the next 8 years.  Some of the biggest discoveries I feel will be on Mars but we need to get bodies back and forth.

 

Imagine if Earth became inhabitable.  Would you want people on the moon base and Mars base to continue the human existence?

[twiztor]

personally, i believe that humans have never been on the moon. (an 'Areala Asks' topic on conspiracy theories, perhaps?)

 

i would support the idea of going to the moon (again?) especially if it leads to an expedition to Mars.

[Data]

It seems like it would have been easier to have actually landed on the moon than it would have the 1000's of Nasa and Apollo employees keep a secret like this for so long.

 

Speaking of theories, somebody ought to have Trump find out what exactly has been going on at area 51.  I suspect when he comes back we will all be fed a massive cover up.

[te72]

Read Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land" and tell me how you feel about living on Mars...

 

On a serious note, logistically speaking, using our moon as a launching point for Martian expeditions seems a bit difficult. Part of the problem would be getting fuel to our moon to refuel before a Martian trip. XKCD covered the trouble of space exploration (specifically rocket technology and physics) in one of the "What If" columns. I highly recommend you read that sometime, seems right up your alley Jake.

 

Also, uh... brrrrr. It's cold enough here on Earth, can only imagine temperatures on the dark side of the moon when it's on the far side of Earth in relation to the sun, much less anywhere at any time on Mars.

[Areala]

I believe I'll let Sir Elton John have the last word with regards to how it would be to live on Mars:

 

 

OK, all joking aside...

 

Twiztor, I'm genuinely curious how you came to hold your belief regarding the moon. Perhaps I shall have to do a conspiracy theories question! The possibilities there are endlessly exciting!

 

*huggles*

Areala

[Data]

Read Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land" and tell me how you feel about living on Mars...

 

On a serious note, logistically speaking, using our moon as a launching point for Martian expeditions seems a bit difficult. Part of the problem would be getting fuel to our moon to refuel before a Martian trip. XKCD covered the trouble of space exploration (specifically rocket technology and physics) in one of the "What If" columns. I highly recommend you read that sometime, seems right up your alley Jake.

 

Also, uh... brrrrr. It's cold enough here on Earth, can only imagine temperatures on the dark side of the moon when it's on the far side of Earth in relation to the sun, much less anywhere at any time on Mars.

 

In 2011 the US Federal government grounded the SLS Orion project.  This shuttle when finished is capable of delivering 70 metric tons of payload into orbit.  NASA eventually plans to build several variants of the rocket, allowing it to carry 105 tons in one configuration and 130 tons in another.

 

The 130 T payload is required to comfortably launch from earth to Mars and back again. 

It could also been done with the shuttle we have now which carries 65 T payload but would need to stage it on the moon or the space station first.  Neither way is cheap but compared to money that goes "missing" it would have already paid for much of this.

 

Other options could be nuclear and solar wind once in orbit.

 

I believe I'll let Sir Elton John have the last word with regards to how it would be to live on Mars:

 

 

OK, all joking aside...

 

Twiztor, I'm genuinely curious how you came to hold your belief regarding the moon. Perhaps I shall have to do a conspiracy theories question! The possibilities there are endlessly exciting!

 

*huggles*

Areala

I enjoy some of Elton Johns music.

[daven000]

It is rumored that Donald Trump is going to kickstart the space program in America again. 

Trump is going to kickstart it? Cue thousands of news articles that explain why space exploration is suddenly evil and furthers white supremacy.

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Trump is going to kickstart it? Cue thousands of news articles that explain why space exploration is suddenly evil and furthers white supremacy.

 

I know right?  Hollywood is living in a bubble.  Universities are now a place where parents spend upwards of a quarter million dollars to have their kids come out dumber.

Now all these fake news sites are trying to decide what news is fake. 

I have my reservations for Trump but I also believe in most of what he intends to do.  I don't care for conservative republicans from the south.  I do think republicans such as Carlton Banks, Alex Keaton and yes Donald Trump are good step towards putting limits on how far these psychos are going with political corectness.

 

And for the first time ever, someone is going to allow americans in the fly over states become competitive in manufacturing and innovation.

 

Also, uh... brrrrr. It's cold enough here on Earth, can only imagine temperatures on the dark side of the moon when it's on the far side of Earth in relation to the sun, much less anywhere at any time on Mars.

 

 

 

Space stations, shuttles, lunar landers and any man made apparatus needs a long term source of electricity for it’s electronics in outer space or hostile teritories such as Mars, Earth’s moon or the arctic circle.

Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generators use heat created from the decay of radioactive isotopes and apply it to an array of thermocouples.

A thermocouple consists of two dissimilar metals, joined together at one end. When the junction of the two metals is heated and the other end is cooled, a small net voltage is produced sending the electrons from the hot to the cold side.

Isotopes selected for RTG’s are limited to the ones that spontaneously alpha decay such as plutonium-238.

This is because it takes less shielding to keep radiation from introducing a separate problem as well as reducing weight. Choose the amount of fuel you need by calculating the half life as well as the total voltage requirment and you could have a lunar lander that runs for 30 years or more.

The Voyager 1 and 2 missions, operating on RTG power since launch in 1977, are on the verge of reaching interstellar space on a collision course to star AC +79 3888. It should reach in approximately 40,000 years.

RTG’s not only provide heat for the thermocouples but they also keep instruments and other components warm.

Future Mars missions will have astronauts drive the rovers and start construction on a Mars laboratory.

It is a sure thing radioisotope Thermoelectric generators will be abundant to power the electronics, motors, bateries and keeping warmth fo the crew.

[Sean697]

Trump don't give a damn about Space. Also the NASA already has a plan for Mars. And the Orion program has not been grounded. They tested it a year or so ago on a single orbit around the Earth.

[kitsunebi]

I know I've tread into those dangerous waters before myself, so I'm not being critical, but from now on I've decided to adhere to the following rule from the Retromags FAQ:

One of the simplest ways to contribute to Retromags is to be active on our forums. Whether you are replying to existing topics or creating some of your own....it all helps in the end. We only ask that you treat each other with respect and stay away from hot button issues like race, religion, politics.

 

The discussion of the space program is interesting though.

[daven000]

And for the first time ever, someone is going to allow americans in the fly over states become competitive in manufacturing and innovation.

This is the key to defending Trump to people who think his supporters are all just KKK neo-nazis. Globalization and open borders destroys the working class. It keeps wages stagnant and labor demand low. Does anyone seriously think to themselves that the elites (regardless if they call themselves liberal or left or not) actually give a shit about the plight of poor mexicans and muslims from the big bad racists? They're exploiting them for cheap labor and to bypass hard-won basic worker's rights like the minimum wage and the 40h work week. Rather than get mad at Trump for him not wanting refugees to depress labor demand and inadvertently destroy the American working class, people ought to be upset at the neoliberal warmongering that lead to the refugee crisis in the first place (and yes, this does include Obama - a man who started more middle east wars than George W. Bush). The big irony in all this is that the people who suffer the most proportionally from globalization and open borders are black people and brown people in America. Trump's economic policy will help non-white people more than whites. The only reason you see elites on the news and on talk shows posturing and virtue signaling about supposed racism is because they have to lie in order to keep what they want. They can't exactly come right out and say that they want to keep exploiting third-world slave labor inside America and bypass worker's rights laws. Would make for a bit of a hard sell even to the most indoctrinated person.

 

But anyway, back to space exploration.

[Data]

Trump don't give a damn about Space. Also the NASA already has a plan for Mars. And the Orion program has not been grounded. They tested it a year or so ago on a single orbit around the Earth.

 

Ever since US president John Fitzgerald Kennedy beat the Soviet Union  to the moon in 1969 and later in the 1980's when the US launched all of the worlds GPS satellites as well as Direct TV, Nasa and space exploration funding has been in decline.  Trump has stated interest in increasing the budget for space exploration.

 

 

I know I've tread into those dangerous waters before myself, so I'm not being critical, but from now on I've decided to adhere to the following rule from the Retromags FAQ:

 

The discussion of the space program is interesting though.

 

I am aware of Phillyman's rules on political talk. More or less avoid it.  Sadly politics encompasss every society on earth and right now we are at a crossroad.   Sometimes politics are directly related to the subject matter such as Space X and the International Space Station. 

 

I try not to judge people unfairly because they may have voted for sombody differently than I may have, because that is how democracy is supposed to work.  My thoughts have spilled out in the last couple of years because I feel like my leaders don't care what I think and when I do share my opinion I'm scared I will lose my job or worse.  The kind of Marxism that has emerged in Canada is the reason why I feel so compeled to make myself heard.  I only expect people to be constructive and think before they go and say and do things that will be regretable.

[te72]

Trump don't give a damn about Space. Also the NASA already has a plan for Mars. And the Orion program has not been grounded. They tested it a year or so ago on a single orbit around the Earth.

For a guy with his head seemingly in the clouds, you'd think he would give it a fair amount of consideration haha. Kidding aside, I don't need government to tell me how to live my life, and I suspect it's much the same for the rest of us on here. Anyone here genuinely believe that it is the government's place to tell you how to live your life?

 

 

As for the space exploration, neat as it may be, I'd rather know what's already here on earth. Much of the surface of our own planet is deep enough underwater that we don't know what all is down there. Plus, if you're a student of economics, you'll know that sooner than later (much sooner, I might add), there will be no funds for anyone. Look at the value of the dollar in 2016 versus the value of the dollar in 1913. Short of a whole lot of volunteer work (and donated supplies), I don't see us getting off this rock in my lifetime. But, don't take my word for it, take history's word for it. What happens to a culture in a complete economic collapse, where a government devalues a currency through hyperinflation?

[Data]

For a guy with his head seemingly in the clouds, you'd think he would give it a fair amount of consideration haha. Kidding aside, I don't need government to tell me how to live my life, and I suspect it's much the same for the rest of us on here. Anyone here genuinely believe that it is the government's place to tell you how to live your life?

 

 

As for the space exploration, neat as it may be, I'd rather know what's already here on earth. Much of the surface of our own planet is deep enough underwater that we don't know what all is down there. Plus, if you're a student of economics, you'll know that sooner than later (much sooner, I might add), there will be no funds for anyone. Look at the value of the dollar in 2016 versus the value of the dollar in 1913. Short of a whole lot of volunteer work (and donated supplies), I don't see us getting off this rock in my lifetime. But, don't take my word for it, take history's word for it. What happens to a culture in a complete economic collapse, where a government devalues a currency through hyperinflation?

 

Our left wing media here in Canada is funded by the government.  If you want to have a job as a journalist here, you need to have the appropriate opinions on subjects like a carbon tax,  government control on energy bills, and immigration to name a few.

Our current prime minister is popular with the younger crowd and is friendly with the elites, foreign dictators and other spoiled trust fund babies. On the other hand he is completely out of touch with the average joe.  He either doesn't believe Canada has an identity or he simply hates it.

 

It is in fact more difficult to explore the bottom of the ocean than it is to reach Europa.  This is because of the weight of the water at low depths.

We have enough oil reserves to last us 5000 years.  If  oil companies or new investors find a way to earn "something of value", then these missions would be moving much faster.

It's the same thing with alcohol prohibition in the 1930's.  John D. Rockefeller convinced the ladies of the temperance union to ban the production of alcohol not because he cared about people drinking their face off but because he didn't want internal combustion engines burning alcohol.

 

So with a little incentive, anythings possible.

[kitsunebi]

Our left wing media here in Canada is funded by the government.  If you want to have a job as a journalist here, you need to have the appropriate opinions on subjects like a carbon tax,  government control on energy bills, and immigration to name a few.

Our current prime minister is popular with the younger crowd and is friendly with the elites, foreign dictators and other spoiled trust fund babies. On the other hand he is completely out of touch with the average joe.  He either doesn't believe Canada has an identity or he simply hates it.

 

But what does he have to say about USA space travel?

[Sean697]

I love when people use the term elites and don't know what they are talking about. It's classic take what's wrong with us and blame it on our opponent. Very popular among conservative circles. The "elites" run the Republican Party. Guys like the Koch brothers. People with billions who want to hold onto it for dear life, and who would put us all into Indont urged servitude if the law allowed. They are not the party for your rights but against them.

Edited December 18, 2016 by Sean697

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I love when people use the term elites and don't know what they are talking about. It's classic take what's wrong with us and blame it on our opponent. Very popular among conservative circles. The "elites" run the Republican Party. Guys like the Koch brothers. People with billions who want to hold onto it for dear life, and who would put us all into Indont urged servitude if the law allowed. They are not the party for your rights but against them.

I didn't mean to "trigger" anyone.

 

Merriam Webster defines elite as "the socially superior part of society " To put it back into context of who I was speaking of, this defines our prime minister well.  Justin Trudeau never had a job in his life.  He partied with aristocrats around the world.  He lived off his father's trust fund until he was 40 when he decided, hey you know what?

I think I will become Prime Minister.

 

Now, the only time Justin leaves Montreal is to step onto a jet and fly around the world while telling us if we want to pay for our carbon tax we should walk to work. 

[kitsunebi]

Let's try to stay on-topic guys.  And again I point to the forum rules of no politics. 

[te72]

Oh, I completely understand the WHY behind why our oceans remain a mystery, I just find it infinitely more interesting (and potentially useful) than space exploration. Perhaps due to the very finite nature of our planet.

 

On the topic of space however, and back to my point of getting supplies for a waypoint to Mars, I think I may have an idea for a solution. Now, the issue with rockets is a combination of the conservation of energy and diminishing returns. See, a rocket needs a certain amount of fuel in order to escape earth's gravitational pull, plus however much fuel it needs to get to where it is going. Problem then lies with the fact that fuel is a payload, and a rocket can only have so much payload. How do you increase the payload? More power! Except... more power requires more fuel. Remember, objects in motion tend to remain in motion, objects at rest tend to remain at rest.

 

It requires an enormous amount of energy to propel a rocket into space. Once it gets there, fuel requirements are quite small. However, getting that 100,000 lb object off the ground, just to start with... that takes a lot of energy. If I recall, the vast majority of fuel payload that a rocket can carry is merely to get it past the 60k altitude. So, I don't see the current technology being of much use for transporting traditional fuel into space for other travelers to use.

 

Now here's where it gets interesting. Ever been on or seen Superman, the Universal Studios ride? Replace the passenger sled with a shuttle / rocket, and scale it to size. Using what is essentially rail gun technology, I think you could get a spacecraft to some fairly respectable speeds, enough so that the fuel requirement to escape orbit would be significantly lower... Might even be able to launch a craft into space without needing any fuel of its own to get there, provided you had enough space and enough power in the magnets.

[daven000]

I love when people use the term elites and don't know what they are talking about. It's classic take what's wrong with us and blame it on our opponent. Very popular among conservative circles. The "elites" run the Republican Party. Guys like the Koch brothers. People with billions who want to hold onto it for dear life, and who would put us all into Indont urged servitude if the law allowed. They are not the party for your rights but against them.

Elites run both parties. Also, Trump voters despised the mainstream conservative establishment. Both the conservative and liberal elite establishment are shills for internationalist billionaires and bankers who care only about globalization and squashing the working class.

[kitsunebi]

3rd time guys.  I can copy and paste all day, but I'd rather not.  From the site rules:

 

 

We only ask that you treat each other with respect and stay away from hot button issues like race, religion, politics.

 

That's 3 strikes.  You guys suck at baseball.    Keep this thread about the space program or start a discussion/argument about politics somewhere else, please.

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Now here's where it gets interesting. Ever been on or seen Superman, the Universal Studios ride? Replace the passenger sled with a shuttle / rocket, and scale it to size. Using what is essentially rail gun technology, I think you could get a spacecraft to some fairly respectable speeds, enough so that the fuel requirement to escape orbit would be significantly lower... Might even be able to launch a craft into space without needing any fuel of its own to get there, provided you had enough space and enough power in the magnets.

Railgun technology is the use of an electromagnetic field to propel an object.  The field can be generated by a series of rings which act as the anode surrounding the center cathode which will also be used as a launching point.

And like the roller-coaster, an electromagnetic field can be created between two parallel lengths of conductive material.  When power is applied the object on one end is propelled.

The problem with rail-gun technology is the conductors get too hot and tear themselves apart because of the power needs.

32 M joules for 25 pounds  is what the US Navy claims their rail-gun costs.

If I wanted to move 70 tonnes (1000 Kg) it would require 1.2 x 10^11 Joules

For smaller things they have proposed a circular magnetic satellite launch system similar to this.

I like the idea of the skyhook or a space elevator it is sometime called.  The idea is to anchor something with high mass like say a giant bowling ball which weighs 10,000 Kg’s and put it into geosynchronous orbit.  This is the point where the centrifugal force overcomes the gravity and it remains in earth’s orbit.

The object would then tether back to a mobile platform in the ocean.

Over the course of 6 days a vessel will climb it’s way up the tether into orbit at which point the vessel can be released and choose a new destination.

The problem with this is the tether material needs to be made of carbon nanotubes which currently they haven’t figured out how to create it in long lengths.

[te72]

I can only imagine how strong a circular launch pad like that would have to be in order to be used for a shuttle. Seems like it would be an efficient use of space though.